It's transphobic to be against MTFs attending Fest...

[Wildwomyn]

...but not transphobic to not want FTMs at Fest? How can this be? I think I have this right from dandypants, who opposes FTMs but will welcome MTFs at Fest. Opposing MTFs is transphobic but what is it when one opposes FTMs?

[bintalshamsa]

The above is a strawman argument, pure and simple.

[Brenda]

[ps]

I understand the MTF-yes, FTM-no argument. What I don't understand is understanding, flexibility with identity, and overall slack for MTFs (for instance, seeing how an MTF, despite being born with a penis, seriously and completely identifies as having been born female and lived her entire life as female) and not having the same for people born female who are in the midst of making choices about hormones, community and identiy.

Which again, takes us back to the beauty of festival having an INTENTION, clearly stated, rather than a policy. The onus of identification is on each individual. It doesn't matter who someone else does or doesn't have slack or understanding for. What matters is the individual's self-identification, and their willingness to respect or disrespect the intention.

[Wildwomyn]

There must be 2 kinds of transphobia then, one that applies to MTFs and one that applies to FTMs. I also agree with ps in the intention statement. Those who don't fit the intention and attend anyway are disrespecting Fest and the other attendees.

and BTW, I don't advocate for FTMs to attend Fest either, as well as I don't advocate MTFs attending Fest. I have so stated my stance on this before.

[MasterAmazon]

right on Wildwomon!!! No past, present or future males!!!!

[bintalshamsa]

[Artemis]

Gawd, BS, you still just don't really get fest culture at all. People are allowed their views, we just don't always get our way. MA is a member of this community, you are not. MA is a radical lesbian separatist. Something you do not appreciate or understand, so you ridicule. The Fest community decided it was better for women and their young male children to have access together rather than be separated from each other or be forced to choose.

[salspua]

And heaven forbid anyone cast another light on festival culture and thinking! If anyone does, we must point out how she doesn't understand us and clarify that she is an outsider. It is important that we stay entrenched where we are and not even consider the ramifications of our thoughts. Only we are permitted our ideas, even if we don't get out way. "Outsiders'" ideas are just plain wrong.

Nice.

I appreciate separatist space and what it means to get a sense of who we are in an environment with fewer variables. To me, it's so we can re-enter the outside world better centered. After observing siblings interact at fest, I question the wisdom of boys beyond infancy there at all. And I acknowledge the value of little boys being with their mothers and in that space. I find "No past or future males" jarring. I understand MA's intent and also see ugliness in her statement that is not separate from the "reality" she fights against.

I value women's space, and also see the validity of Bint Alshamsa'a statement. I question anyone's need to label her an outsider and dismiss her point.

[AmazonTrader]

Salspua, bs is an intentional outsider who comes here to piss & shit on all of us. How you can defend, pretend or act as though anything else is going on is just beyond me. It's one thing to say we should be bigger than people like bs and not stoop to her level and another to act like she's an innocent getting picked on here. Gawds, do you even bother to read her bullshit half the time? It's hateful, reactionary and irrational most of the time and she posts only with the intent of slapping at us.

At least understand that much before you go defending her abuse to her victims.

[vstar]

i hear what you're saying here sal (hi btw) and i just kind of look at it like both of their statements are extreem, because when you look at it, Festival is already doing it pretty good ...and one would know that if you've attended and can see that

1. boys still do attend (until age 10) but do not come to the interior (which could also mean "do not attend")

that being said...i understand MA because..

2. i too have seen even the young ones..what is it, up to age 4-5? that are in the interior and the interaction you speak of...sometimes i think wow ..it starts young doesn't it...

so Festival makes the allowences and the parents make the ultimate decision...
i do love to see all the little ones though male or female...

[salspua]

AmazonTrader -
Yes, I read what Bint Alshamsa writes. My take on it is different from yours. To me, she is not here to be a troll, but to get us to question what is a "given" to us. She is not the enemy. I have benefited in so many ways in different areas of my life by having my beliefs/assumptions questioned. I don't always agree with other ideas, but I appreciate the different perspective.

Do you see how you're labeling her as "enemy"? Why do you want an enemy? And who is stooping to whose level? Are you stooping by yourself? It's the form that counts, not the details.

Fest is doing great, but nothing should be so sacred that it can't be questioned. I agree parents should ultimately weigh the value of their daughters' girls space with the dependency of their preschool brothers. I came to fest late enough that I was spared weighing that. The boys were already too old. My daughter worked for 2 years.

and Hi! back!!

[AmazonTrader]

Salspua, I say again--

...It's one thing to say we should be bigger than people like bs and not stoop to her level and another to act like she's an innocent getting picked on here....

I do not make bs the enemy here, she has already declared and sworn herself to be the enemy of fest and all womyn who support and attend it. She posts attacks anywhere and everywhere she wants and disregards even the most basic internet etiquette because to her we're not worth even the basic considerations afforded the worst offenders on this earth.

Yeah, I used to be nice to all comers too Salspua but that made me neurotic as hell and it just never worked. I just don't have the time, the interest nor the inclination to spend my life getting kicked around and smiling about it.

[salspua]

Thank you for demonstrating my point.

Bint Alshamsa is not the innocent one being picked on. Neither are you. (Or any of us here, BTW.) You are framing it that way and projecting it on her and then telling me I'm being nice to all comers because I'm not picking a side. I am not being kicked, and neither are you.

[bintalshamsa]